This post provides my thoughts on the latest version of the Pathfinder role-playing game (RPG) published by Paizo. In particular, I’m reviewing the Player Core version of Pathfinder Second Edition, published in November, 2023. This version has removed all dependence on Wizard of the Coast’s (WOTC’s) Dungeons & Dragons Fifth Edition (5E) System Reference Document (SRD).
My review is not a comprehensive assessment of the Pathfinder system. As a 5E player and Dungeon Master (DM), I will be comparing Pathfinder with that system. I will identify and analyze Pathfinder rules which I think would significantly change the experience of playing 5E. My goal is to determine whether those who like (or dislike) 5E should consider playing Pathfinder.
Summary: I feel no desire to switch to playing Pathfinder. The three significant differences between Pathfinder and 5E are how they handle proficiency bonuses, their philosophy behind providing ability modifiers, and the way Pathfinder uses feats to customize characters. To me, the benefits provided by the Pathfinder approaches to proficiency bonuses and character customization do not outweigh the problems caused by the complexity added by those approaches. The assumption that characters of some ancestries (formerly races) are simply not as good at some things as characters of other ancestries, based solely on their ancestry, is not an attitude that I can support.
Critical successes and failures: Pathfinder rolls are critical successes if the roll is a natural 20 or if the result is at least 10 more than the target success value (Difficulty Class or DC). Critical fails are rolls of a natural 1 or if the result is 10 or fewer below the DC. Any d20 roll - attack rolls, ability checks, saving throws - can be a critical success or critical failure. 5E critical successes only occur on the roll of a natural 20 for attack rolls, ability checks, and death saving throws. 5E critical failures only occur on the roll of a natural 1 for an attack roll or death saving throw (although rules changes in the 2024 update will probably add ability checks to that list). This means that the Pathfinder rule is more consistent. It also discourages players from “crit hunting” by trying a difficult ability check hoping to succeed with a natural 20. Highly skilled characters can show off by criting with a high roll that isn’t a natural 20. To me, these changes encourage roll playing and generally speed up the game. Advantage: Pathfinder.
Secret checks: The Pathfinder Player Core codifies a practice of many 5E DMs, including myself. Players like rolling dice. But if they roll high when looking for traps and getting a response that they don’t find any, they can be pretty sure that there are none. If the DM makes the roll and tells the player their character doesn’t find any traps, the player can’t really be sure that there are none. I find secret rolls add uncertainty that increases the sense of peril and thus the fun. Not many of my players agree, though, and choose to make the rolls themselves. Pathfinder doesn’t mandate certain rolls be made in secret, but it does make it the default. Since I prefer secret rolls, I prefer the Pathfinder system. Advantage: Pathfinder.
Proficiency levels and proficiency bonus: To me, this is one of the major discriminator rules between Pathfinder and 5E. Pathfinder characters have one of five proficiency ranks for each skill, from Untrained to Legendary. If their rank is not Untrained, any skill check they make has a proficiency bonus added to the roll. The rank applies a moderate effect, +2 to +8, depending on level. But the character’s level provides a much more important bonus, +1 per level. 5E provides for three ranks, untrained, proficient, and expert. The proficient rank allows the application of a bonus based on character level, but one which maxes out at +6. Expertise in a skill allows the application of a bonus twice that of the proficiency bonus.
The Pathfinder proficiency bonus rule is an example of an aspect of Pathfinder that I call, “numbers go up.” In 5E, some character and monster characteristics reflect their level or challenge rating. Hit points is the characteristic that increases the fastest. With the limit on proficiency bonuses, character skill rolls and attack rolls are only modestly improved by character level. Armor class (AC) and saving throws are hardly affected at all. In Pathfinder, all of these rolls are calculated with a proficiency bonus, which goes up every character level. Thus, “numbers go up”. Interestingly, damage is not affected by proficiency. High-level monsters who are bags of hit points are more of a problem than those who have lots of armor.
A benefit of the Pathfinder rule might seem to be a reduction in randomness. An expert swordswoman with a decent strength could have a +18 to her attack roll. An equivalent 5E character might have half that bonus. The Pathfinder character can hit an AC or 20 much more easily than the 5E character. Of course, Pathfinder compensates for this by making AC go up with level, which 5E does not. An adult dragon in 5E (average to-hit roll of 22) has a good chance to hit a low-level character decked out in plate mail and shield, but it isn’t a sure thing. A Pathfinder dragon wouldn’t have any worry about chomping any low-level character in half. Since all numbers go up, Pathfinder characters should find monsters of roughly equivalent power a challenge, those of lower power trivial, and those of higher power nearly impossible. Pathfinder does this much better than 5E.
I do have problems with the “numbers go up” system. I find that combat slows down the more the players have to refer to their character sheets. The more character aspects that affect a battle, the less chance that a player remembers them all, and the more the need to refer to character sheets. Similarly, the more often character aspects change, the less chance a player remembers what they currently are, and the more the need to refer to character sheets. Since so many character numbers are affected by the proficiency bonus, which changes every character level, most players will have to look up these numbers more often than they would in 5E. Pathfinder combats are likely to be slower than in 5E. Since combat is my least favorite of the three pillars of 5E/Pathfinder play, this is a significant problem with Pathfinder.
I recognize the problem with power level in 5E being, to a large extent, indicated by hit points. It is much easier to create a balanced combat using the Pathfinder system. However, the extra complexity that the “numbers go up” system adds to Pathfinder makes me prefer 5E. I’m sure others, particularly ones who relish combat in these systems, would prefer Pathfinder. But, for me, Advantage: 5E.
Number of actions: Pathfinder Core allows for three actions per turn, although there are many “activities” which take two or three action slots. 5E allows one action and, for some classes, one bonus action. The fact that casting some 5E spells, for example, is an action and casting others is a bonus action increases the complexity of the game. As I’ve mentioned before, I believe that increasing complexity increases the amount of information players have to remember or look up and slows down the game. The fact that Pathfinder has one more action slot than 5E increases the flexibility of the system but also increases the complexity yet another step. Advantage: 5E
Attribute modifiers: The differences in the way attribute modifiers are set during character creation is another major discriminator between Pathfinder and 5E. Pathfinder attribute modifiers are set based on ancestry, class, and background. 5E attribute modifiers are set based just on ancestry and class. There are three aspects of attribute modifiers that I wish to discuss.
The first aspect is Pathfinder’s use of modifiers only, rather than 5E’s use of both ability scores and modifiers. On the face of it, Pathfinder’s dropping of the scores makes sense. The modifiers are used much more than scores. I’ve watched 5E live plays in which the DM asks a player for one of their character’s ability scores, to which they get an answer of something like “+1”. It is possible that many players who have come to the game in the past few years don’t even realize that ability scores exist. The primary effect of 5E keeping scores is to make it more difficult to increase an ability modifier. During character creation, players get to increase attributes an equivalent of +1.5 modifers (+2.5 for humans). Many feats increase ability scores 1 point, equivalent of +0.5 modifier. Pathfinder doesn’t deal with partial modifiers. Given equal opportunities to increase ability modifiers, Pathfinder modifiers will go up faster. Those opportunities are rare, so ability modifiers don’t really suffer from the “numbers go up” problem. Mostly, keeping just to modifiers and to integer increases makes Pathfinder simpler than 5E. Advantage: Pathfinder
The second aspect I wish to discuss is attribute flaws. One of the best things that WOTC has done in the past few years is to get rid of ancestry-based negative attribute modifiers. Negative attribute modifiers had had the effect of making it harder to make some heritage/class combinations effective. Want a half-orc wizard? You’ll have to figure out how to deal with that -2 Intelligence modifier or accept that your wizard will be less effective than an elven one. Now, stick your +2 modifier in Intelligence and your half-orc can be a genius caster. Pathfinder Core has kept negative attribute modifiers for most ancestries. Yes, those with negative modifiers have an extra positive modifier. Yes, players who don’t want to use the default set of positive and negative modifiers can opt to get two free positive modifiers instead. But a halfling rogue still benefits more from having three positive modifiers and a negative strength modifier (in an attribute which would likely be a dump stat anyway) than a dwarf with two free positive modifiers. The default Pathfinder rule has to be considered racist. Which is a shame for a ruleset that ditched the term “race” long before 5E. Advantage: 5E.
The third aspect I wish to discuss is Pathfinder’s use of backgrounds to provide attribute modifiers. In original 5E, backgrounds were primarily used to provide proficiency in two skills. Other than that, backgrounds had little effect on gameplay. The past few backgrounds published have had a feat associated with them. That trend is likely to be made more pervasive with the 2024 rules update. So, which is more important, more attribute modifiers or a feat. A feat can add a lot of flavor to a background, making it more than something chosen for its mechanical advantage. Attribute modifiers will affect gameplay more often. It is difficult for me to decide this one. If it were Pathfinder vs. current 5E, Pathfinder would be the obvious choice. But the potential role-playing benefits in the updated 5E has a lot of appeal. It’s close, but advantage: 5E.
Classes and their key attributes: Pathfinder Core and 5E have a decidedly different balance in their class flavors and their key attributes. Pathfinder has 2 martial classes (12.5%) and 5 magic-based classes (62.5%). 5E has (arguably) 5 martial classes (38.4%) and 7 magic-based classes (53.8%). In Pathfinder, all characters need a high Intelligence score to get a decent number of skills. Pathfinder has done away with most Charisma based casters - paladin, sorcerer, and warlock - leaving only the bard. In 5E, the number of skills a character has is not based on attribute values. Only a few general skills are Intelligence-based, making it a common dump stat for non-wizards. In Pathfinder, Charisma is still important for players who are interested in role-playing social situations. Otherwise, it can easily be a dump stat. Are these differences important? Probably not. They change how players build characters, but neither is clearly better than the other. No advantage.
Note that Pathfinder gets an epic fail for describing classes as “[t]rained in spell attack modifier” and “[t]rained in spell DC”. I understand that these are references to the mechanics, but, in English, you can’t actually be trained in a modifer or DC! Just say, “can cast spells.”
Saving throws: 5E saving throws are based on a character attribute. Pathfinder saving throws are also based on a character attribute. But, unlike 5E, the saving throws are not named for that attribute. It takes extra mental cycles to remember that a Fortitude save requires a roll against Constitution. Granted, this mapping would soon become second nature to Pathfinder players. But it is an unnecessary complication. Advantage: 5E
Edicts and Anathema: 5E doesn’t have an equivalent to these enforcements of good role-playing practices. They add flavor, particular for clerics. But do they add anything that good role-players wouldn’t be doing already? (Slim) Advantage: Pathfinder
Alignment: No alignment in Pathfinder! Advantage: Pathfinder
Advantage/disadvantage: Pathfinder doesn’t have an equivalent of the 5E system of advantage and disadvantage. Overall, I think that system benefits 5E. But it can be complicated to figure out when a character or monster has advantage or disadvantage. The rule of thumb for this review is that extra complexity is bad. “Advantage”: Pathfinder
Leveling-up: Pathfinder bases leveling up on experience points (XP). 5E allows for XP-based leveling up, but the general trend is towards milestone-based leveling. It is a lot easier to determine whether a party has met a goal than to whip out a calculator to calculate the XP to be awarded to each party member. Advantage: 5E
Feats: Pathfinder offers more feats and more paths to getting those feats. For example, a Bard has 79 feats available. In many cases, abilities 5E offers in sub-classes Pathfinder offers as feats. This is the third major discriminator between Pathfinder Core and 5E. In some aspects, this approach is wonderful. It allows so much flexibility in creating your character. For example, if you want your spellcaster to have some of the flavor of a 5E sorcerer, you can take feats that mimic the sorcerer’s meta-magic. But the sheer number of available feats can drive the complexity of character creation through the roof! New players are often deterred by all of the options available to 5E characters. Feats make Pathfinder much more daunting. Pathfinder is a min/maxer’s or hard-core roleplayer’s paradise. But it may be too much for many. Advantage: 5E.
Versatile heritages and mixed ancestries: Pathfinder adds “versatile heritage” templates that can be applied to any ancestry. You can now have a dwarf tiefling, if you want. Mixed ancestries are a method for creating half-elves and half-orcs. I love both of these ideas. They add a lot of flexibility and flavor. I just hope that the general rules for mixed ancestries are fleshed out and made more easy to use in the future. I want a half-dward/half-orc. Advantage: Pathfinder.
Spells: There are a few relatively minor differences in how the system handles spells that I want to point out.
In Pathfinder, heightened spells count as another spell you have to prepare. 5E assumes that, as you level up, you naturally learn how to apply more power to spells you already know. The Pathfinder rule seems to unnecessarily penalize spell-casters. Advantage: 5E.
In Pathfinder, focus spells are special types of spells that don’t use spell slots but do require use of Focus Points. What’s the point of this? The player of a spell caster has to remember which spells are regular and which are focus. A lot more complexity for no discernible benefit. Advantage: 5E.
Pathfinder keeps the Vancian magic system that 5E has edges away from. In particular, a Pathfinder character can cast the same spell twice in a day only if they have prepared it twice. In 5E, as long as a character has enough spell slots, they can cast a prepared spell as many times as they want. Advantage: 5E
Skill increases: In 5E, gaining proficiency or expertise in a skill rarely occurs after character creation. In Pathfinder, characters have the opportunity every few levels. This is an option that 5E desperately needs. Advantage: Pathfinder
Lore and general knowledge skills: 5E has several “do I know something” skills - arcana, nature, history, and religion. But what does a player roll to see whether their character knows the identity of any of the Hidden Lords of Waterdeep? 5E needs just a couple of more general knowledge skills. Pathfinder is more complete with 8 such skills - arcana, crafting, lore, medicine, nature, occultism, religion, and society. Seven of these seem to span the checks that you would need to take. The lore skill is a little out of hand, though. It isn’t really a single skill, but a grouping of skills. Pathfinder Core lists over 50 “common” lore skills. Fortunately, being trained in a lore skill looks like it is optional. Some backgrounds grant proficiency in one of these skills as part of the background. If a player really wants their character to be an herbalism, that option is available. A GM might make it easier for such a character to succeed in a plant identification check than one using a more general purpose nature check. Advantage: Pathfinder
Dying: In Pathfinder, death saving throws add or subtract one (two, for a crit) from a score. That score usually starts at 1. If it reaches 4, the character dies. If it reaches 0, the character stabilizes. In 5E, it is a race. Reach 3 failures before reaching 3 successes, the character dies. In 5E, rolls of 10+ are always successes. In Pathfinder, the roll gets a penalty equal to the score. If the score is 1, a success is 11 or better. If it is 3, a 13 or better. The Pathfinder system has the advantage that there is an even chance that the first roll will stabilize the character. It has the disadvantage that the dying process can go on forever: failure, success, failure, success, …. The 5E system has a maximum of 6 rounds. That adds a sense of urgency. I don’t know that either system is better than the other. Advantage: neither.
Hero points: Pathfinder hero points are similar to inspiration in 5E. They can be used to reroll. In Pathfinder, a character can have 3 hero points. A 5E character can only have one inspiration. A 5E character can give their inspiration to another character who needs it. A Pathfinder character cannot share hero points. The biggest difference is that a dying character can spend all of their hero points to stabilize. If a player is smart enough to keep at least one hero point, their character cannot die (at least the first time the character gets knocked unconscious). This mechanic mitigates the chances that a character is killed by really bad luck. Advantage: Pathfinder
Actions: The Pathfinder Player Core book lists many more specific action than are called out in 5E. Not that a 5E character can’t perform these actions. It is just that the designers of 5E did not feel that it was necessary to specify that a character can avert their gaze from a medusa. The problem with the Pathfinder approach, aside from the extra paper it takes to print out all of these actions, is that players might think that these are the only actions their characters can perform. If they come up with something imaginative to do, they might reject it because it isn’t specifically listed. A player without a clear idea of how to achieve an effect might spend quite some time shifting through the listed actions to find one to use. These are not actual restrictions in the system, but providing this much specificity might make it seem like they are. Advantage: 5E.
Initiative: In Pathfinder, initiative bonuses are related to Wisdom (the character who sees the danger first acts first). In 5E, they are related to Dexterity (the character who has the quickest reaction time acts first). The 5E rationale seems more logical to me. Mechanically, this difference makes Dexterity much less important. In 5E, Dexterity’s effects on AC and initiative makes it one of the most important attributes for all classes. In Pathfinder, proficiency bonuses quickly become much larger than any Dex bonus on AC. Dexterity can be a dump stat for anyone but rogues and ranged-based martial characters. Advantage: 5E
Conclusions: With some exceptions, Pathfinder funnels characters towards standard, high-fantasy tropes. Within those restrictions, characters are very customizable. This flexibility adds a lot of complexity to the system. This complexity can lead to analysis paralysis during character creation and slows the game down during play.
Counting up the rules I thought Pathfinder did better and which ones 5E did better, it looks close: 10 to Pathfinder, 12 to 5E. However, for the three sets of rules I thought had the most effect on the game, the advantage went to 5E for all three.
Some players may love the ability to create exactly the character they want within the Pathfinder system. Some may relish the extra complexity. To me, the less the rules get in the way of good role-playing the better. 5E is definitely the better system for me.
Den of the Red Wolf 